Submitted by mjohnson on

The front page of today's Kennebec Journal had the following story:

Ownership of historic cannons in dispute
By JOEL ELLIOTT
Staff Writer
Tuesday, January 23, 2007

A wrong turn on a Richmond back road led antiques dealer Todd Violette to one of the biggest discoveries of his career.

He had been planning on making a house call for his Winslow-based business, Violette Antiques and Collectibles Inc., when a glimpse of Civil War history caused him to slam on the brakes.

Their green patina glowing, two bronze cannons stood in incongruous splendor in front of a plain brick building belonging to the Emerson-Lane American Legion Post 132.

Violette knew the cannons were valuable. They were 12-pound Napoleon cannons, prized by armies on both sides of the Civil War for their accuracy and superior ability to fire without bursting.

"I was going past the Legion, and I kind of did a double take, because I couldn't believe what I was seeing," Violette said. "I had an employee with me, and I turned to him, and said, 'Jesus, do you realize what we are seeing?'"

Violette threw the car into reverse and pulled into the parking lot, eager to learn more about the cannons. Eventually, his research would reveal that the cannons were two of only 370 manufactured by Boston-based Henry N. Hooper & Co. for use by the Union Army. Cast in 1863 -- the middle of the American Civil War -- the cannons probably were fired at Confederate troops. They could be worth hundreds of thousands of dollars, and Violette's curiosity was aroused about their origin.

"It just struck me as odd that this little post out in the middle of nowhere had these really valuable cannons sitting out front," he said. "I was wondering how they acquired them."

But the woman inside the Legion post would give him little information. Her guarded manner gave Violette the first sign that something was awry.

Violette's inquiries two years ago soon sparked an ownership dispute that continues to this day between the Legionnaires and Togus Veterans Affairs Medical Center, from which the cannons had been removed decades before.

Click here for the rest of the story.
Or here for the Portland Press Herald
The above two links go to the same story but the comments at the end of the stories are different due to the different publications. There are also photos.

Forums: 

I have read the full story

I have read the full story and the comments after by readers of the Kenebec Journal, and I have to say this, how many other cannons are out there? we see then every day, 24# parrot rifle in Rockland, rodmans in Searsport and bowdoin, two parrots in front of the oakland libary and the three or four in the park in Waterville(pointing up), Right or wrong the cannons were moved over 35 years ago, what is the statute of limitations, fighting a veterans group should leave a foul taste in ones mouth. yes the cannons should be protected but maybe they should just build on to the legion hall and let them display them there or one in the hall and one goes to the state museum...
Who knows...
Seamus

"if you try to fail and succeed, what have you really done?"--quote from a former co-worker of mine

PRIMA NOCTA

Pondering this most of the night

I've been pondering on this story over night. In amongst my PowerBall dreams I wonder if the tubes are serviceable? Ahh, dreams... :)

As you point out Mike, there are a lot of these little treasures around. Few people seem to care about them. These in Richmond happen to be brass and in a size that could be moved with relative ease, giving them value in the form of dreams. An easier dream than trying to get a rodman restored and into a museum.

I'd like to see the Legion keep the guns. I'd like to see them restored with carriages and limbers and all. And I'd like to see them on public display. But on the last two points, if these points can be reached by Togus or the State then maybe the guns should move.

Yes, I am waffling...

Now speaking of guns in Maine:
Bath has a rodman in Oak Grove Cemetary at the Soldiers and Sailors Monument.
Bath has a rodman on Center Street just below the old County Courthouse.
Bath has a rev war-era cannon in Patten Free Library Park.
Bath has a two-inch breech loading gun of I suspect WWI-era on the lawn of the Supervisor of Shipbuilding Office across the street from Bath Iron Works.
Phippsburg has a rodman on sand dunes between Spinneys Restaurant and the old Life Saving Station.
Oakland, I think, maybe Belgrade, has a 75mm mountain howitzer in front of the Post Office.

And I am sure if everyone pitches in, we can make quite a lengthy list artillery pieces around the State. Most of them are fine where they are. Some might need some work. But is anyone going to cry out to have those preserved and maintained in a better fashion than they are being maintained now?

Probably not...

I havn't seen them, but my personal opinion is that the guns in Richmond are fine. I know the rodmans in Bath get a fresh coat of paint from time to time and have been plugged at the bore. Can't really see doing much more to them!

--
Michael Johnson

-- Michael Johnson

Followup story today

Here is a link to a new story today on the Richmond Legion Cannons.

I chuckled at this quote:

"I'd love to see these cannons back where they belong," Ridley said. "I've put a lot of time and effort into this investigation."

So Captain Ridley wants these back in a storage shed or barn on the Togus campus? Out of sight, out of mind? I don't know Captain Ridley and I'm sure I am twisting his words and changing the context. But I found it a bit humorous to think that everyone would be happy if these two guns had never come out of the closet 50 years ago.

--
Michael Johnson

-- Michael Johnson

When that guy whos name

When that guy whos name escapes me found the ATOCHA and had millions of gold and silver Doubloons, his problem was with the state of Florida, not for back shipping taxes but claiming the prize as an artifact of historical signifigance, if I am not mistaken the guy lost one son on the search and salvage of the treasure. Robert Ballard finds the TITANIC and lamaents the salvage operations now ongoing, but he didnt claim salvage rights sooooo...... and thus the great debate over collectible, monument or piece of scrap Iron... go to goggle earth and look for Davis Mothan Airforce Base....10,000 acres of all of the above.
the thing here is more of a "look there were only 300 made! they are worth millions!"
versus there were 100,000 made half are still around.....
one thing though the antique dealer shouldnt be able to profit unless he now has a backdoor deal With togus......So to keep things Fair they should stay where they are, but moves should be made to help restore to carrige and store undercover or the two are split up one stays and one goes to the State museum. or they could give both of em to Me!
Seamus

"if you try to fail and succeed, what have you really done?"--quote from a former co-worker of mine

PRIMA NOCTA

there you go! the classic if

there you go! the classic if I cant have it no one will!
the Antique dealer was denied the opportunity to make a profit and now hes punishing the Legion.
Seamus

"if you try to fail and succeed, what have you really done?"--quote from a former co-worker of mine

PRIMA NOCTA

I my travels For work I have

I my travels For work I have trod upon many a back road and seen many an odd thing....the other day I found myself on the road that has the Cannons in Front of the legion hall....I can see the concerns that they are crumbling into dust....indeed!
now on a more concerning note to some, the guy who has the cannon in his front Yard in livermore falls has moved it to his driveway and its now covered in plastic, possible restoration project or is he getting ready to sell it.? traveling on the side roads of Augusta right off of western Ave. I have run across a person who had a 3in. rifle in his front yard last I saw of it, it was on a jack stand with one wheel removed.
but if the richmond cannons really need a good home in the care of a "neutral" third (or fourth ) party they could always let me have em!
But really having gone by there and seen the beast so to speak they look no more in danger of decay than the numerous cannons at any nps site.
Seamus

"if you try to fail and succeed, what have you really done?"--quote from a former co-worker of mine

PRIMA NOCTA

Maine Cannon

Being from Michigan, I can't comment on the issue of the ownership and suggestions for the two 12 pounder Napoleon cannons. However, after reading the comments of the respondents I thought I would add some additional information that might clarify why the cannons were at the VFW post.

There is a ongoing debate here in the Midwest between cannon collectors and the Sons of Union Veterans as to who can rightfully claim the ordnance, and thereby determine where they should reside.

Following the Civil War, it was possible to submit a request to the US House of Rep for condemned US (or CSA) ordnance to be used for veteran/general memorials or town/cemetery displays. I reviewed the US House of Rep files online and counted nearly 20 incidences in 1866 alone where Congress sent cannons to be used in the Gen. McPherson memorial, Keokuk, Iowa veteran park, etc. The Rock Island or other storage arsenal would then dispatch said cannon (sometimes including limbers) to the community. This practice continued until the early 1900's. With the advent of the two World Wars a number of these condemned cannons were lost to scrap drives.

Until recently, many of the cannons that had been donated to Grand Army of the Republic (former Union veteran) posts, cemeteries or community parks were allowed to 'age gracefully', endure acts of vandalism (a number here in Michigan were introduced to dynamite with bad results), or become forgotten in the weeds along with the CW soldier graves.

In the 1960-70's collectors began to realize that these cannons were no longer being used for their original intended purposes. They approached local communities who either sold them the cannons or allowed them to be used in centennial or reenacting artillery groups. In one respect, the cannon were being given a new lease on life and cherished for their historical value.

More recently, collectors have approached cash-strapped communities with the offer to purchase the cannons outright; or to purchase the original tube and provide a reproduction. What most community leaders do not understand is the value of these relics. They also lack any paperwork that documents when and under what conditions the cannons were originally donated.

This has led to the current controversy about ownership--who really owns the cannons? The community, the cemetery, the former GAR-now VFW post??

The Sons of Union Veterans of the Civil War hold the opinion that the condemned ordnance was donated by the US Govt to GAR posts/cemeteries. This is the big sticking point. As US Gov't property, the cannons are considered to be essentially 'on loan' to a community. Furthermore, the SUVCW is recognized by Congress as the direct descendent of the GAR vets and tasked with the responsibility to maintain all memorials, etc--this includes donated/GAR cannon. Granted, this position is not universally recognized or endorsed by the cannon collecting community.

I certainly appreciate the concern for the ME cannons welfare, and how best to preserve them. I would suggest that concerned citizens consider contacting the Maine Dept-Sons of Union Veterans (see email addresses below). They may be able to offer you some helpful suggestions about this issue, or refer to the National War Memorial officer for their guidance.

Department Commander-Maine:
James W. Brown
j.w.brown@ieee.org

Sr. Vice Commander-Maine:
Eric Boothroyd
Boothroy@somtel.com

Best of luck on preserving this vital piece of Maine, and this country's, history!

Bill Skillman
Past Camp Commander
Robert Finch Camp 14
Dept of MI
SUVCW

Ownership of Cannon

Years ago I was an associate of the SUV and wholeheartingly supported their mission and goals. About a year or so ago, I had an unfortunate conversation with Mr. Boothroyd that forever changed my opinion on the caretaker role of cannon by their organization. As most all of us here know Mr. Brown, he was able to at least save face for the proud organization at I once held in higher regards. It is unfortunate that the SUV does not have more men like Mr. Brown who are able to show respect for the Confederate dead who so nobley gave their lives for he cause that they believed. Not to say that the SCV does not have a similiar problem, we actually need men like Mr. Brown in both organizations.

In the case of the cannon in Richmond, it seems pointless to chase after rainbows that disappeared 20-30 years in the past...lest it was a viligance to find them when they first "disappeared". In this case the cannon were sent to an appropriate home and like all memorials, suffered the passage and neglect of time. So long as the people are willing to keep them where they are and resistance to their removal, then they should remain. The principle was demostrated through countless numbers of historical excavations of ancient cities where the people no longer cared to prevent the removal of relics. It was only after many artifacts removed and monument destroyed that the people (government) rose up and put an end to the removal of property that it did end. (or severly limited the taking) The power of percieved ownship should rest on the local community and not the SUV or US Government. This sentiment, much to my surprize, appeared to be the same with another post concerning the cannon in Vermont.

Will