I am sure most of you have heard that the late governor of Wyoming, now vice president Dick, accidently shot a hunter in Texas. I am also sure that the gun banning fanatical nazi liberals are having a field day with this. But this news does have a light humor to it. When was the last time an American Vice President shot somebody?
On July 11, 1804 Vice President Aaron Burr fatally shot Alexander Hamilton, former secretary of treasurer. Though Burr was a very shady figure and was not an inspiring figure in history, I believe that his shooting of Hamilton was an honorable one. For though Hamilton was a noble patriot during the revolution, later he, with the Federalist party of the time were in favor of charting America's future toward a very centralized government where the goverment would have power over the people rather than the people having power over the goverment. Yet, there are many contrasts between Aaron Burr's incident and Cheney's incident last week. Burr and Hamilton were in a duel and the shooting was deliberate. Dick's was just an accident. Burr's shooting was fatal. Thankfully, Cheney's accidental shot was not fatal. .
But the fact remain, though it was an accident, in February of 2006, Dick Cheney became the second American Vice President to shoot another American while in office.
Dick Cheney and Aaron Burr
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Lesser of two evils
I understand a T-shirt shop in Corinth Maine is selling shirts that Say
"Id rather go hunting with Dick Chaney, then go for a car ride with Ted Kennedy..."
To that I say....
HUZZAH!
Seamus
(How many more Mr. Speaker! how many more?)
"it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifing......nothing"
MacBeth
My t-shirt: I won't drive
My t-shirt:
I won't drive with Ted Kennedy until he gets true justice for killing a woman and I won't hunt with Dick until he takes a gun safety course.
(wonder if all the words will fit)
Truth or Spin?
Several official reports say that Whittington, stepped out of the safety zone to retrieve a bird. Hard to say if this was true or not but not, I do know that many folks get shot while hurting birds. Probably more so than deer, bear,Moose, Elk and Prolong hunting combined!
This in all likelyhood was an accident and not necessarily avoidable under the circumstances unless the party didn't go out hunting at all. For more info on Whittington go here:
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/3654596.html
On the shooters side, I have to respect Cheney for using a 28 gauge gun. Some consider this an experience shooters shot gun. If he had been using a 20 gauge, Whittington's injuries may have been more extensive and he may not have survived. This is just my quess based on the information I have. Would I go hunting with Cheney??? If he's paying for the trip! Would I take a trip with Kennedy?...Only if I drive!
Will
Ive never done much
Ive never done much hunting....Never have hunted deer thought I like to track them, but used to do some bird hunting down south, Duck and Dove, Id hunt with my Savage 20guage side by side...and I can tell you, depending on hunting companions this is an accident, I can see it happening. haveing been urged by hunting companions to shoot a pair of mallards that were Five feet in front of me in a swamp when not 50 feet directly in my line of fire there was another hunter...and hunting doves after the BBQ on the Albert "Buddy" DAllas estate(lawyer for James Brown) with an open Bar the thing I remember most other than hunters who had been drinking, was sitting in the field shooting at flocks of doves with bird shot raining down all around me. So a guy stepping out while someone else is tracking a covey to shhot doesnt surprise me in the least.
Seamus
"it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifing......nothing"
MacBeth
Just basic safety.......
Everyone knows my opinion about this administration. However, the first basic rule of hunting is target identification. If you don't know what it is or what is beyond, don't squeeze the trigger. Remember that woman who was shot in her backyard in Hermon? that guy should have done some jail time. There was another incident involving a person that I used to work with's son. He also killed someone because he didn't know what he was shooting at.
Having shot several game birds with a 28 gauge, in order to put one of the pellets deep enough into someone's chest to hit and damage their heart, you have to be quite close.
Mr. Cheney was also hunting illegally. We have to hold him to the same standard as a "common" hunter.
Just my 2 cents
Your on to us Dick!
Rushbo spilled the beans today on the controversy. They have discovered that from the official reports the angle of the shot was all wrong! In fact, the guy was was blasted by bird shot on both sides of his body confirming that there was a second shooter in the woods! It's not clear why Bush wanted this guy off'ed, but it went terribly awry! Thank god, they found a good impersonator to make us think the guy is still alive. (I think I can actually report on this with a straight face!)
I am not going to second guess the situation but I don't believe for one second Whittington was the target. I think he was a victim that just happen to be in the line of fire. As far as penatration, the velocity of the pellets were between 1000-1400 feet per second. I have no idea how far Whittington was from the Cheney but it was my understanding that the pellets didn't actually penatrate the heart. Hard to really say though. Lucky it wasn't a 12 gauge I guess. Let's see how soon it takes Cheney to get back into the field with a shotgun before we judge him too harshly.
Will
Careful Will!
If I didn't know you so well then I would think that maybe this tale was true! :)
I've not hunted birds, nor fired a 28 gauge. But that's a pretty small bore isn't it? He must be a fair shot I guess. He seemed honestly remorseful on Fox news this week. And I heard Harry Whittington talk today. He seems to accept it as just an accident.
It's a shame this has over shadowed Al Gore's speech in the Saudi Arabia earlier this week. Now if you want to talk about conspiracy theories, I think Al Gore's story has more substance!
But how about we find an nice 1860's political discussion? I'm tired of modern news. :)
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Michael Johnson
Well, Mike Johnson, I did
Well, Mike Johnson, I did start the thread off with comparing today's news with yesterdays, thus came the Dick Cheney and Aaron Burr title. So history was on the mind while starting this discussion. Which I am surprised nobody has touched on. In fact, I haven't heard anything about the comparison in the news! True there are many contrasts between the two shootings but the funny bottom line fact is, is that Dick was the second sitting United States Vice President to shoot somebody.
Yet, history is filled with other vice presidents who have done their share of shooting at least before or after their terms. (Though only two vice presidents, Aaron and Dick shot men while in office). Less than two years after John C. Brekenridge left the office of vice president he was a Confederate general. Though it is a matter of claim that he ever got close enough to use his side arm against the enemy, I am sure that like most other Confederate generals, he did come close enough to the front to spray his officer's pistol a time or two.
George Clinton, our forth vice president was a Revolutionary War veteran and again it is a matter of claim rather he fired shots in anger at the red coats.
Theodore Roosevelt, one time vice president who led from the front during the Spanish American War undoubtedly drew a bead on a Spanish soldier, and George Bush Senior flew 58 combat missions in WWII shot at the enemy at a different elevation.
More than a few other vice presidents and presidents themselves fired shots in anger. Burr meant to shoot Hamilton, and other vice presidents aimed their rifles and pistols and in one case, his wing cannon at red coats, Union soldiers, Confederate soldiers, Spanish soldiers, German soldiers, and Japanese soldiers.
Yet, Dick stands alone as the only vice president to have accidentally shot someone. And luckily for their fellow hunters, most of those other vice presidents I've listed took good safety courses while in basic training. Dick also stands as the only vice president who should have taken a gun safety coarse. What a funny, funny admistration!!
Trying to be nice
Truthfully, I feel the topic is total nonsense and don't see the comparsion between the two no more than Teddy and FD shared the same the same last name without being father and son. How many remember the Lincoln-Kennedy penny because there were a lot of contrast between the two men and their assignations.
Burr shot Hamilton in a duel which is in some respects considered self defense. This incident did not end dueling in America. In fact in continued for nearly another 40 years, until Jonathan Cilley (Maine Representative in Congress, ) was in killed in a duel. This became a public outcry leading to a Bill that outlawed dueling in 1838. There is little to no contrast between the incident with Burr and the incident Cheney. Sorry no comparision other than a plain fact that Cheney shot another man. That man didn't even die or hold a grudge for being shot.
In my last post, it should have been obvious as I noted Rushbo "Rush Limbaugh" who actually reported the senarios. Rush even went on to say a few other things that I would not dare write here. Bottom line is the event was blow way out of porportion. As far as Cheney not taking a gun safety course, who knows if he has. He has been hunting for 40+ years without shooting anyone (at least none reported). I think that more than qualifies he as knowing gun safety. Now it would be interesting to see how many people that have taken gun safety courses have shot people while hunting. Would it have been okay to have shot someone because they took a safety course? What difference would it had made if Cheney had taken a course, it wouldn't have prevented the accident.
I agree that this issue got too much press and attention. What Gore did in Saudia Arabia was extremely serious and will probably end up getting more Americans killed by riling up the radicals in the middle east. Yet, this will remain back page news to Cheney shooting his friend.
Will
Trivia
Beyond the trivia question that will result from it years from now, I don't think the media finds the comparison of any use to the discussion, Zac,
The media clearly has other interests in this than trivia.
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Michael Johnson
Will. why did you bring up
Will. why did you bring up all the contrasts? We are all know that Burr's and Dick's dual was not 100% alike. In fact, in my first post I wrote,
"Yet, there are many contrasts between Aaron Burr's incident and Cheney's incident last week. Burr and Hamilton were in a duel and the shooting was deliberate. Dick's was just an accident. Burr's shooting was fatal. Thankfully, Cheney's accidental shot was not fatal."
Why did you have to bring all these facts up again as if I hadn't realized it?
Bottom line is two vice presidents in history shot other men while in office. Adding contrasting details to that fact just totally ruins the fun of the point. We all know the contrasts. But I thought it was fun to mention the one comparison.
Just enjoy the one comparison for what it is. I know all the contrasts.
As usual my thread caused a handsome dressing down. Can I not make a thread without it being spun and propelled into some greater issue? Yo, Relax! :-)
Huh? Okay!
Zac,
You are probably right, Myself and others probably took your post a little more than what you meant. Probably the style compared with your known hostility of the Bush Adminstration causes me and others to question your motives. I have suggested before to avoid modern political discussion because it will usually lead into misunderstanding.
We write in this forum to share and exchange idea's, most of the time we write to share opinions and engage in discussion. There were several routes we could have pursued with your opening post. Hum, Seamus pursued the Cheney thing and you followed up with a political statement about Cheney! This is where your post got misdirected! Not necessarily with Seamus but with your follow up.
Pretty plain and simple.
Will
It is clear that me and 29th
It is clear that me and 29th Sergeant (not sure what your name is sarge)and Tom Bassford and I share a very common view of the administration.
We believe what we believe because how the admistration effects our lives, families, and country.
It is hard for me not to share my feelings. I am a terribly honest. Freedom of speech is the happiest part of my American experience. However, with this right comes respect and responsibility. I will do my best to respect the feelings of the majority of this board. I will be more sensitive with my views not because I choose to censure myself but because there is no honor in trying to convert somebody to my views. I think we are all in agreement however, that the Cheney shooting news is getting very old after a week. So I'm gonna turn any future discussion toward states rights and union.
Another deadly chilly day. Looks like the heating oil companies may get their profit this season after all!
Zac, I think the response
Zac, I think the response you recieve is due to the fact that you have such strong political views, both modern and historic, that some of us interpret a hidden agenda in any discussion you start that even remotely relates to modern politics.
In reference to who 29thSergeant is, you can click on his user name in any of his posts and find that it will take you to the profile page. There you will discover that his name is Dick. But it's generally okay to refer to someone by their nickname or user name here.
If you would like some suggestions of forums where discussions of modern politics are welcome then I would be happy to email you a long list.
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Michael Johnson
Exactly!
I refrained and restrained myself from explaining it the way Mike did for a variety of reasons. The main one is others need to chime in. When I interact with others I tend to leave modern stuff behind for the most part. I have no problems with Freedom of Speech except for when folks begin to force opinions on people in unrelated areas. I have said it before...this is not really the area for modern discussions not somehow connected to the CW. Yes, we have an off topic area but this should be used lightly, the main theme of the forum is Civil War discussion.
I respect most everyone's opinion to a point. Dick and I get along well because of this. Despite popular belief, I am not a Republican!
Does that matter, "Heck no". Dick and I don't agree with most of each others political views but we get along because we don't dwell on political discussion. Two well know famous actors and life long friends--James Steward and Henry Fonda made a pact never to discuss political views because they were extreme opposites, they remained close friends till the end.
If I want to hear about politics I will turn to CNN.
Will
ok
ok