To all a question.
Twenty years ago I obtained from a antiques, and rock dealer (Martin's of Allenstown, PA)this blade.
see:
http://www.geocities.com/steve_schoner/Blade1.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/steve_schoner/Blade2.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/steve_schoner/Blade3.jpg
The story of this acquisition was from an estate sale of a Louisiana Woman who's great-grandfather served in the Louisiana Tigers. That is what I was told and it has been on my shelf ever since.
But I have always had suspicions about this knife, its authenticity.
The blade is made from a carriage spring, and is hand ground with a nice patina. The handle is elk horn, and looks old the guard is a copper strip. The elk horn handle has the tang going all the way through.
The guard is solid brass and appears to have been made from a CSA belt plate or other accoutrement. I have seen this in only one publication in Kerksis' book on Civil War belt plates.
This one used for this knife was apparently ground on the edges to eliminate the outer boarder. So it is about a quarter of an inch short of what it should be otherwise.
For years I have asked others about this blade. I have even approached some qualified Civil War relics dealers on this, yet none can give me an answer.
Is there anyone here that can give me advice?
Steve Schoner
(I used a PDA PalmOne Zire-72 for the crappy images. I can make better ones with my Sony digital camera)
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Sorry to say...
.... it looks awfully fake to me as well.
If there is a date anywhere on it it's definately a fake...
It just seems WAY to ideal in it's construction... The patina on the brass looks chemically done.
That being said, I bought a CS tounge and wreath saber belt in pristine condition. a couple antique dealers swore it was fake... I got it professionally appraised by THE guy who wrote the book on Confederate Buckles and it was a rare variant... the guy ended up buying it from me himself.
2nd Lt Eric R. Reeder
United States Army
Corps of Topographic Engineers
"Hawks and Eagles fly like Doves"
2nd Lt Eric R. Reeder United States Army Corps of Topographic Engineers "Hawks and Eagles fly like Doves"
The green patina on the
The green patina on the plate at first looked suspect, however in the photo it is somehow brighter green than it actually is. This brass plate is solid cast (whoever did it did a very good job) and the patina on it is a dark almost black with some dark green areas.
I does not have any date.
One thing that bothers me about this. If that plate is fake, it is the only one that I found anywhere in 20 years.
I would imagine that if one were to make a mold for such a fake plate he would have made others.
This thing I have had for 20 years. It was obviously hand made, and it is made very well, buy one that liked large fighting knives.
Steve Schoner
Like I said...
I bought my Belt Buckle back in 1978. I knew it came out of an attic because I knew the lady who was selling it. I'll tell you one place was darned pissed off at me for trying to sell him a fake. His reasoning was that it was "TOO Pristine". It turned out to be real and made me a bundle.
2nd Lt Eric R. Reeder
United States Army
Corps of Topographic Engineers
"Hawks and Eagles fly like Doves"
2nd Lt Eric R. Reeder United States Army Corps of Topographic Engineers "Hawks and Eagles fly like Doves"
humm..
Obviously it looks like a D-guard bowie knife. and a
lot of the soldiers actually made there own. So there might not be a date. The best thing you can do is maybe find a makers mark and do some research. I think that's your best bet.
Pvt.J.Thurlow
Not a D Guard
I would not consider this a D Guard knife as the D Guard is usually a one piece guard. From the photo's it looks to be a two piece. Yes, we can classify it as a D Guard for conversation.
In any respect I agree with your assessment that it is probably a fake because it is so highly unusual. I know that in the late 70's and early 80's (and earlier) the market was flooded with many fakes. There were several books out on how to make D Guard bowies. They were very popular with re-enactors as well as mountain men impressions.
That is not to say the piece is not worth what you paid for it, assuming it wasn't more than $100. It is definitely an interesting conversation piece.
Will
Real or not Its a heck of a
Real or not Its a heck of a knife,, I wouldnt mind owning one like it. I tell you what I know about Antiques, its only worth what people will pay. I have a cousin who is an antique dealer and has been for some 40 years and its what the public market dictates he remembers finding civil war brogans in estate sales and at the time the civil war artifacts werent prime and old shoes like that were often just given away or thrown in the junk pile, now those same shoes will bring hundreds of dollars...
Do you like the knife? or did you buy it in the hopes of a profitable resale? its still a nice knife and I imagine someone out there would pay over $100 just because they think it looks cool...
Seamus
"it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifing......nothing"
MacBeth
Well...
I don't think its a knife, Maybe a short sword. Great for chopping wood....lol...lol...lol
Pvt.J.Thurlow
This knife is unusual. It
This knife is unusual. It caught my eye and I traded some meteorite slices for it.
The green patina is enhanced by the Zire-72 PDA camera much more than it is.
The blade is obviously made out of a carriage spring, like the ones used in the 19th century. The handle is elk, the D is made of a strip of copper. The patina on the blade is deep along the flat surface, and somewhat thin along the sharpened edge. It also has some deep nicks caused by some use, or chopping.
The length of this blade is 19".
What has me intrigued is the guard with CSA. This looks authentic. The plate was bored, and the high relief CSA was hand notched, but not all the way through, to allow for the blade.
I wonder if this was made sometime after the Civil War or maybe into the early 20th century, and the person that made it used a real CSA belt plate. This is solid brass over 1/8" thick, and the outer edge shows wear.
"CSA" appears on only two CSA belt plates in Kerksis Belt Plate book and this guard looks like one that is oval yet mine misses the outer edge (I think that it was ground off perhaps because it was thin and maybe damaged).
Any ideas?
I can provide a closeup of this plate with a much better camera.
Steve Schoner
P. S. Does anyone know anything about the LA Tigers? They fought at Gettysburg and carried big and long knives such as this.
Tigers
LA Tiger Zouaves were perhaps the most famous Confederate Zouaves. Formed in 1861. The Battalion itself earned a reputation for being full of cutthoats and convicts. The fame came more from it's commander Maj. Chatham Roberdeau Wheat who raised the special Battalion. Though the men fought like deamons at Massassas, Wheat was shot through both lungs and and told the wound was fatal. Wheat replied, "I don't feel like dying yet!" and recovered. He was wounded again at Gaines Mill in 1862 and succombed to the wound. The Battalion is reported to had been disbanded the following day. This was largely due to the inability of other officers to command (handle) the men. There much written on this short lived Battalion including information on their uniforms.
You may want to post your inquiry on the Authentic Campaigner Website. They have 1000's of knowledgable people on histories and artifacts.
Will
Check the back of the...
... buckle... sometimes there is a roman numeral scratched into it.
one way to tell if they are real.
2nd Lt Eric R. Reeder
United States Army
Corps of Topographic Engineers
"Hawks and Eagles fly like Doves"
2nd Lt Eric R. Reeder United States Army Corps of Topographic Engineers "Hawks and Eagles fly like Doves"