It has come to my conclution that we (29th Georgia)are being made frock coats for the manasses event. I personally think its a great idea being that its the first major land battle war and very period correct. But... thats going to suck in july when its humid as hell.
I was reading some of Marks thoughts on the event. He said that July in V.A. reaches high temps. For are sake, being mainer boys and/or women that it is not going to be that freeken hot. but all and all hope we have fun and hope to see many friend there.
Pvt. J.Thurlow
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Manassas
Well look at it this way, at least we're in a valley near the mountains.
"Hawks and Eagles fly like Doves"
Major Eric R. Reeder
CSO, 1st Division ANV, Staff
Liberty Hill Signals
2nd Lt Eric R. Reeder United States Army Corps of Topographic Engineers "Hawks and Eagles fly like Doves"
By the way...
I hear copperheadannie sews like a dream! You guys could perhaps get a group discount.
"Hawks and Eagles fly like Doves"
Major Eric R. Reeder
CSO, 1st Division ANV, Staff
Liberty Hill Signals
2nd Lt Eric R. Reeder United States Army Corps of Topographic Engineers "Hawks and Eagles fly like Doves"
Right.....
Yeah actually we're only paying for the cost of the materials. only about $80. which is great:)
By the way Whats with the "Halks and Eagles fly like doves" thing???
Pvt.J.Thurlow
Heat?
Interesting concept. You men are able to dress rather comfortably in shirts, jackets, pants & shoes. Add to that the leathers, musket & canteen, yes it's alot to carry. But if you want to compare this with what we women wear, there's absolutely no contest. Ask any man whose wife re-enacts & they can tell you. We wear chemise, pantalets, corset, corset cover, 1-2 petticoats, hoop and/or crinolines, additional 1-2 petticoats, hose & shoes. Then we put on our outer dress. This can be as simple as a 1 piece dress or as complicated as a period ball gown. Is it hot? Try it sometime & see. Why do we do it? Because we are not just re-enactors we are historians. Accuracy counts. We can't shuck off our outer dresses & relax about the camp as you boys can. We can't roll up our pant legs & wade in a creek to cool off. But then the men & women who origionally went through the hell we call war had no choices in the matter. The best we can do is go by their example & honor their memory & sacrifice by properly dressing the part & behaving in the proper manner. Anything less would be an insult to their memory & a disgrace to ourselves.
~Miss Patti
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind~Dr. Seuss
Manasses
Ok being a true CopperHead I have to say something about the frocks. What are you thinking these men bled and died for what they believed in. Not once did they say this wool is to hot. When A.P. Hill and General Lee stood at Chambersburg and turned our great Army towards Gettysburg not once not once did our brave men say that hot July day the wool was to hot. Not once did one of our Generals that lost a leg and tighten his girth 14 days later and rode wearing wool did he say I am too hot. When Lee faced his defeat and bowed his head to the Federal Eagle at Appomattox did he look at the Union General Grant and say we are not going to do this today because our wool is too hot. For God sakes man tighten your girth and stop being a girly -man CopperHeadAnnie Hawks and Eagles Fly Like Doves
actually...
...you also have to take into account that WE grew up with air conditioning. We are not used to hard outside summer work. and many of us are WAY heavier than our 1860 counterparts. But then again... WE only have to do it for a weekend at a time and usually have to hike a half mile to a battlefield where they had to perhaps doubletime 10 miles to even get into place to START fighting.
"Hawks and Eagles fly like Doves"
Major Eric R. Reeder
CSO, 1st Division ANV, Staff
Liberty Hill Signals
2nd Lt Eric R. Reeder United States Army Corps of Topographic Engineers "Hawks and Eagles fly like Doves"
CopperHeadAnnie
What i was trying to get at was the same fact of what major Reeder explained. Unlike the men and woman of the period we didn't grow up wearing that kind of clothing. Plus, the wool during the civil war was not nearly as thick and rich as todays wool. During the war they were mass producing uniforms(all though most didn't get to the men in time any), but as they produced the sheep were not as helthy and groom for the best quallity like today. They didnt worry about that so that so much, they just wanted them made and shiped.
I didn't mean to sound like I was bitching, I mean im 18 years old i can take it. I just feel sorry for the some of the guys in the unit that cann't...
By the way your daughter is HOT!!!lol Pvt. J.Thurlow
CopperHeadAnnie
What i was trying to get at was the same fact of what major Reeder explained. Unlike the men and woman of the period we didn't grow up wearing that kind of clothing. Plus, the wool during the civil war was not nearly as thick and rich as todays wool. During the war they were mass producing uniforms(all though most didn't get to the men in time any), but as they produced the sheep were not as helthy and groom for the best quallity like today. They didnt worry about that so that so much, they just wanted them made and shiped.
I didn't mean to sound like I was bitching, I mean im 18 years old i can take it. I just feel sorry for the some of the guys in the unit that cann't...
By the way your daughter is HOT!!!lol Pvt. J.Thurlow
HOT???!!!
Well....of course she's HOT! Private...she lives in Georgia!
The Frock coat issue is merely being discussed at the time. We are leaning towards them as they were worn by the unit. At the present time, I don't know of anyone in the unit that can't handle wearing the the Frock coat. Many in the 3rd Maine only wear the frock and I have worn one for years. Mine is exceptionally hot due to it being lined in polish cotton.
We are also considering havelocks, gaiters and full backpacks and dress gloves and will be using Sibley Tents. We agreed on brass shoulder scales and buff leathers. The Shako's are going to be the most expensive. After todays meeting we are in disagreement as to the Shako plume color, I favor green but the rest say black.
We are still open to suggestions for other options for things to wear and use.
Will
Daughter is Hot????
Good lord young man that is HIGHLY inappropriate language for such a precious flower of the south.
"Hawks and Eagles fly like Doves"
Major Eric R. Reeder
CSO, 1st Division ANV, Staff
Liberty Hill Signals
2nd Lt Eric R. Reeder United States Army Corps of Topographic Engineers "Hawks and Eagles fly like Doves"
HEAT IN JULY!
As being a man who has swapped 6 months of Summer for 6 months of winter, I can honestly contest to how severe the heat can be especially in Stonewall's Valley. It's on record that Lee lost over 2000 to heatstroke before he reached Gettysburg. Most of those heartier souls were VIRGINIANS so figure that they suffered from prolonged exposure (Read that: 25-30 miles forces march in heavy marching order.) with no relief in the forseeable future. ITS SUMMER ITS THE SOUTH IT WILL BE HOT. Count on it understand it prepare for it!
"Never Apologize, It's a sign of weakness!
Cpt. Nathan Brittles
Pvt. Steve Henry
Co. A, 3rd Maine Volunteer Infantry
"Bath City Greys
In all seriousness
I have never done Manassas for the very reason of your concern Josh. I have seen my share of hot weather from 107 degrees in Mumford in 1990 to 115 degrees at Gettysburg in 1993. At least there was shade at Mumford. As Steve mention's it is par for the course with summer re-enacting in the South. This event is simply not for everyone and we will be strictly monitoring folks for signs of heat related illnesses.
The bulk of your concerns has been noted as mostly "whining" about wearing wool. The yanks have to wear it and the event rules are stressing that the Confederates adhere to wool uniforms as well. Truth of the matter I am not certain what you are hoping to accomplish by posting the issue in this forum? Especially when the issue has not even been discussed officially within the unit. Perhaps you should join the yahoo group to discuss this issue.
We have discussed frock coats for a few years now. We know that several of our companies wore Frocks in the early to midway in the war. We also know that Company E was orginally designated as a Zouave unit. We have several options to consider. We will probably decided on what we will wear for uniforms at our Constitution Party in February.
As far as heat concerns and being from the cool north...there are several things you can do to help minimize heat related problems.
First, don't wear shorts or tee's during the summer. Wear long sleeves and heavier jeans. Stop with drinking sweet beverages and start drinking mostly water. Don't use air conditioning, when riding in a car roll down the windows instead. Finally...the most important thing is to do outside activities, walking short jogs and such, especially in uniform. This will help condition you for the expected warm weather.
As far as marching at the site, we usually march to the staging area without our Jackets on. The ANV does use some common sense. It will do them no good if half the army is down on the field before the battle begins. We usually do our morning drills without jackets as well. About the only time we wear them is when the actual battle is going on.
Hopefully this will help alleivate some conerns. Let me know if you have additional concerns, questions or suggestions.
Will
shako
Will,
I am interested in a shako with a black plume. Please tell, whereare you purchasing them and their cost.
Pvt/Lt Craig Young
3rd Maine, Company A
29th Georgia/7th Maine
As David Crockett said in the movie The Alamo:
"It's amazing what a little harmony will do."
I know a good supplier...
...the folks who made my Mexican War Uniform makes Shakos but they run about $250 or so.
their email is: uniformsofantiquity@hotmail.com
"Hawks and Eagles fly like Doves"
Major Eric R. Reeder
CSO, 1st Division ANV, Staff
Liberty Hill Signals
2nd Lt Eric R. Reeder United States Army Corps of Topographic Engineers "Hawks and Eagles fly like Doves"
Whining???
Thats funny how you all take it like that....(wait i have to change my dyper)...Im just worried about the other guys who have had problums at other reenactments, like; Jason at goose river, jim at groten, not to mention the parades. Like i said before its going to to be great having a frock coats and it will look goog as being the first battle of the war.
all i was doing was posting my own opinoin and hope to see others opinoins and come up with a conclution. Not to be put down and called a girl, or whining, or anything else.....how old are we???
ill see what i can do to join the yahoo group.
Pvt.J.Thurlow
Manasses
Ok I am the first to say I am sorry I came down on you a little hard. But I am a "keeper of history" forgive me? Hawks and Eagles Fly Like Doves CopperHeadAnnie
Hard lessons
Knock it up as a learning experience for the board. How things are written is sometimes as important as what is written. Personally, I was a bit off balance with the mock swear words as I usually am. This helped to throw me off from your main theme and emphasized that you were probably "whining".
I too am concerned about the heat related issues but no more than normal with our regular shell jackets. After all the Frock is merely a shell with a skirt. As I have already mentioned, they are worn by many units.
As an officer it is part of my job to watch for heat issues and decide who is able to go out and who is not, though the 1st Sgt usually beats me to this task. Groton was an lesson about an individual. There were several things that contributed to situation and it was not just the heat alone. On the known conditions, the person probably would have gone down even if it were only 69 degrees.
I can't go into details here but will in person if you are curious.
I think Jason will come on with his own view as he is one of the supporters of a Frock. (I could be wrong on this.)
Now that one member was brave enough to come out with concerns, I am interested in hearing other opinions and experiences with frocks coats...bluebellies included. Nothing is more powerful than relating personal experiences.
Will
I think that going with the
I think that going with the Frock coats is a good idea. Since we are at the begining of the 5 year cycle it's more authentic to wear the frocks. Plus the frocks do look good if needed for dress parade. As far as the heat, if you are in shorts and t-shirts or in full uniform you still need to watch for signs. Carry extra water in your haversack, take the jacket off when ever you can, and be prepared for wearing the frock. Like Will said, get ready for the event don't use air conditioning, roll down the windows. Wear your uniform for a while before going to the event.
I plan on getting a frock if the rest of the unit decides to.
Lt. Jason Porter
29th Georgia Volunteer Infantry
ferinus vis quod ignarus
Frock not a big difference
In my opinion a frock coat is not a tremendous difference for someone in good health and ready or prepared for the heat. I've done many a parade in a frock coat. I generally wear my sack coat at events but when an event calls for a frock, like Manassas, then I will certainly plan on my frock coat.
Well hydrated in the weeks leading up to the event, regular excersize, and staying well hydrated at the event.
Just my two-cents.
--
Michael Johnson
When I did medieval stuff...
We used to regularly go jogging in full armour weighing up to 50 lbs to prepare for the season.
"Hawks and Eagles fly like Doves"
Major Eric R. Reeder
CSO, 1st Division ANV, Staff
Liberty Hill Signals
2nd Lt Eric R. Reeder United States Army Corps of Topographic Engineers "Hawks and Eagles fly like Doves"
Mike took my thunder...
...will second him:
Dink plenty of water in the weeks leading up to the event - this gets your body use to handling it. Drink plenty of water during the event (or any). I also like to pack Gatorade as well to supplement water, but not replace it.
Might as well throw in on this
For Reeder, I used to be a farmer and a sometime logger with the 30lb McCulloch, in Ga. so im kind of used to that thing,been in 100 degree heat with 100% hummdity while felling trees..been there done that threw up....Water is the key, at the 140th gettysburg an old horse died from the heat. Moral there...dont be an old horse. with mike, frock or shell doesnt much matter its still 10 lbs of wool, frankly I like wool, I havent gotteen some of those period canvas pants, partly because im too cheap, but wool is wool. hot events I take two canteens with me...comes in handy for me and others. salt is another concern, eat corn nuts(parched corn)keep em in your haversack in a ration bag, keep the cramping away, dont be afraid to say to someone im not feeling too well, a small break and a catch up later to the group is better than no break and a trip to the shenendoah regional hospital.
as far as critism on the board....one flareup and your done...I think they hammer on you because they care....
Now honor aside, we forget that they had plenty of casulties from the heat back then as well, they were indeed iron men but not gods, they were tougher than most of us but still had guys dropping out of the Ranks from the heat....some didnt get up again.
Craig...worse comes to worse get a blue forage cap and stick some cardboard in it to make it stand up...get an eagle from dixie gun works....just in case you dont want to spend a Gazillion dollars on a limited use item, after all you are Hob of the Bog and should be as cheap as I am.
NOW Lets have a group hug and everybody is alright..
Seamus
(water water every where and all the boards did shrink,
water water every where and not a drop to drink..)
"it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifing......nothing"
MacBeth
The Advance on Manassas (July 16-21)
3rd Maine Infantry
1861
March 4. Abraham Lincoln took office as President of the United States.
April 12. The first Confederate cannon fired on Fort Sumter.
April 14. The fall of Fort Sumter to the Confederates.
April 15. President Lincoln issued a call for 75,000 militia.
May 3. The President called for 40,034 more militia.
May 28. The 3rd Maine was organized for active service.
June 4. Muster into federal service.
VOLUNTEERS
* These men from Maine averaged twenty years of age. They averaged five feet eight inches in height. Most of them were not married. Most claimed to be farmers. The majority of them never advanced beyond the rank of private.
* The State of Maine census of 1860 had 122,238 men between the age of 18 and 45. The state provided 70,107 men as Union soldiers or about 58.9% of the total available men. Maine provided one of the highest percentages of men of military age to serve in the Union Army of any state in the Union. Maine lost one out every five men it sent to the war. The anyalysis of deaths for Maine’s 49,635 three year enlistment troops is: Killed in combat 3,184 (6.4%); Died of disease 5,257 (10.6%) and all other deaths 957 (1.9%) which was a total of 9,398 (18.9%).
The Passage
June 5. The 3rd Maine left Augusta by train for Washington DC. On their passage through New York City, the regiment’s National Flag was presented to them by Hon. Stewart L Woodford, U.S. District Attorney, on behalf of the sons of Maine.
June 7. In the evening, the 3rd Maine arrived at Washington DC without any fanfare. They were provided with only a bowling alley and some nearby saloons as quarters for the regiment and these had only hard wooden floors for the men to sleep on.
Washington DC (June 8 - July 16)
June 8. Colonel Howard arranged a breakfast for the regiment at the Willard Hotel. Then, The 3rd Maine marched in the rain to Meridian Hill which was just outside of the Capitol. The 2nd Maine was already encamped there so the 3rd Maine camped next to them. The 2nd Maine took the men under their care, dried their clothes, and gave them a warm supper.
* Colonel Howard spent the time drilling, disciplining and preparing the men for war.
The traditional ways of motivating soldiers to fight are
training, discipline, and leadership.
* Training was minimal and haphazard at best. It was mostly drill for the soldiers and self-taught drill and tactics by the officers. Infantry training consisted mainly of the manual of arms and close-order drill, with bayonet exercise and target practice.
* Discipline was enforced by coercion which is the threat of force to compel a soldier to do his duty against his will. The officers felt that drill will keep the men cool and collected while in battle and discipline will keep them at their post. The class difference were that officers were mostly upper while NCOs were mostly middle class and the privates were the yeoman farms and labors of the lower class.
* Leadership was by the example that the officer gave to the men. A good officer was concern for the welfare of his men and was willing to do anything that he asked his men to do. The officer’s personal example of courage in combat and his willingness to share the burdens of the soldiers while on the march made him a leader.
* Recruits were eager to test their manhood in battle but this also created tension. Many recruits were at first excited about the adventure of military life but soon came to feel that it reduced them to a ‘slave’.
* Officers felt that drill and disciple will make good soldiers of any man but the men who were individualistic and democratic did not take kindly to the authority, discipline, and obedience demand by the army.
* It was not the brawling and boastful men that would stand firm in battle but the quit and timid who were educated men.
* Bond of Comradeship. ‘Here is Bill; I will go or stay where he does.’ And the officers who are absorbed by the sense of responsibility for his men, for cause, or for the fight that the instinct to seek safety is overcome by the instinct of honor.
* Many soldiers do run away, or cower into frozen immobility. But if willpower or discipline to overcome the impulse to flight, when they go into action the flood of adrenaline makes them oblivious to danger and fear.
* ‘Fighting Drunk’, mostly officers but some enlisted men would drink liquor before a battle. The men may have been issued a whisky ration before battle but usually it was before they were to perform heavy fatigue duty in adverse conditions such as building a bridge while standing waist deep in cold water.
* There could be heavy drinking done while in camp but it usually ceased with marching orders. Many soldiers were temperate and took pledges not to drink ‘hard liquors’ and felt that a great evil to their morals would grow from the use of it.
July 6. 3rd Maine received their federal blue uniforms and then crossed the Potomac to encamped in front of Fort Ellsworth. The 3rd Maine was the advance regiment.
* During this time, the 3rd Maine exchanged their 1822 Springfield .69 caliber smoothbore muskets for the “new
wow...
that was very interesting, maybe when you guys put on the 3rd. Maine muster we can possibly use some of the facts and have more senarios, other than murch and fire. it's really is amazing how far those men of honor(both sides)marched and what they went through with what they had to deal with.
You remind me of my father, once you get on a subject to give good information you end up reading/writing a book. that was great.
Pvt.J.Thurlow
3rd
Very good read Bootlicker! Thanks for the information, great job!
Craig always comes with the
Craig always comes with the whole load.... where he gets it is the great mystery....if we were to ever find the source I believe we would have to be hanged....
Seamus
"it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifing......nothing"
MacBeth
Miss Patti
you know guys ya just have to love Miss Patti I was just looking at her pic she is the Aunt Bea of the reenactors God Bless the Nancy Harts Hawks and Eagles Fly Like Doves CopperHeadAnnie
AUNT BEA?!
Woman theres gonna be a severe reckoning betwixt us. Just you wait till Sayward gets here. "Hep! Hep! It's a porta pottie!"
:-D ~Miss Patti
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind~Dr. Seuss
Patti
Aunt Bea is a good thing for sure just ask any one in the South and the way you fuss over and take care of these boys
Even I, an unthinking
Even I, an unthinking insensitive male of the species realizes the ramifications of such an accusation, well meaning or no...Though Aunt Bea did take care of the Sherrif and opi. she was like 150 years old and had worked her first job as stonewall jacksons wet nurse...
never ask weight or age....or be prepared to sleep out in the dog house....
But for patty I know the sentiment that annie was getting at..
Pie is a valuable commodity, and Aunt Bea had it in spades..
Seamus
(pie is better than cake)
"it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifing......nothing"
MacBeth
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