Submitted by Capt. Gowen on

Jason & Will

Thanks for the time you spent yesterday teaching the Third Maine how to form two ranks from one (when falling into formation), as is done with the Liberty Greys.

As I mentioned to Jason, I have viewed the commands related to "Formation of a company from two ranks into single rank, and reciprocally" (Casey's School of the Company Nos. 368-379)as a method to either extend or reduce the fronts related to battalion column manuevers, not the initial formation of the company. You have given me something new to think about.

The Third Maine (and other USV units I have observed, generally) have always formed company in two ranks, corporals in the front ranks, tallest to shortest from right to left. The USV (and the Third now) uses Casey's Infantry Tactics. I will quickly site two items from Casey's related to this topic:

Formation in Order of Battle, No. 15.

"The formation of a regiment is in two ranks; and each company will be formed into two ranks; in the following manner: the corporals will be posted in the front rank, and on the right and left of platoons, according to height; the tallest corporal and the tallest man (ie private) will form the first file, the next two tallest men will form the second file, and so on to the last file, which will be composed of the shortest corporal and the shortest man."

School of the Company, No. 4.

The company will always be formed in two ranks. The men will take their places in ranks as prescribed in No. 15, Title I (see above), and without any preliminary formation. The instructor will then cause the files to be numbered, and for this purpose will command: In Each Rank, Count Twos...etc.

I have noted in the past "and without any prelimilary formation" to mean that if we were to follow the "book", we would never first form in one rank, and then double from there.

Anyway, that's where I am on the matter.

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Drill Network

Capt. Gowen,
You may very well could be right with your assumption. Forming company is not sufficently covered in any of the drill manuals.
The best article I can refer you to is from Lt. Col. Lee Jones who has studied the manuals for a number of years.

http://home.att.net/~Rebmus/Formco.htm

Note the we have to interprete everything as we go along because a lot of what was generally common knowledge in military drill and courtesy has been long lost to modern drill. Thus, Col. Jones freely admits his adding "By right double File, right face" when training his troops. The problem here is simply that you can not give the command "By right double file" when the troops are only in a single file. Nontheless, a truly well written nearly flawless scholarly piece on the subject.

A great source for drill is located at

http://home.att.net/~Cap1MD/Drill.htm

This site is a project put together by Lt. Col Lee as well.

Will

How are the corporals placed?

Thanks for posting that link Will. The article is interesting and the references are well documented but my original question goes unanswered. The article does not even mention a corporal, let alone how they are placed.

I have some reading to do before I can post references as complete as Col. Jones' article but the references Capt. Gowen posted clearly state that corporals go in the front rank and act as bookends for each platoon.

Hardees reads nearly exactly like the Casey's references that Dave posted above. See Hardees, Article First, Section 8.

Years ago I fell in with a group from Mass. that formed the company the way Col. Jones describes and you demonstrated. They then shuffled everyone in a zig-zag pattern to open holes and place the corporals where needed. It took time.

So I will have to agree with Col. Jones and ask this one last question. I agree that, "The chore is so mundane, that no military historian has recorded it..." So is it possible that the typical volunteer line company ended up doing exactly what typically happens now?

And that is, on the command, Company Fall-In, the Tallest corporal take up a position designated by the First Seargent and the rest of the company falls in from tallest to shortest from the right to left respectively. The First Seargent then shuffles privates as needed to make holes for corporals, who are placed in the front rank and to the left and right of each platoon.

I'll do some more reading this week but at the moment I don't see it as faster or easier. Just my opinion.

Now to the other question of the massing of troops in the battalion and reducing the front, I've got some more reading to do on that as well.

Thanks for the lesson though. I do enjoy the discussion. Perhaps sometime in the future we can get enough men together to walk through columns of platoons and get everyone practicing dressing to the left. And wheeling into line. A blue gray company for a day?

Just a thought...

--
Michael Johnson

-- Michael Johnson

Corporals

Unfortunately the manuals don't go into specfics on NCO ranks. I think most of these roles were again known by (unwritten) tradition. We(ANV)tend to post the corporals in the center as described and if there are four they all go to the center front and back rank. I suspect that "bookends" are more correct than what we do.

As far as falling in and forming each time, I don't think it was always done. I have a feeling most of the men know where they were suppose to be during most formations anyway. One the formation gets formed the men should have an idea of where to be anyway. It is good to know the process for how to form ranks and is worth doing.

I will relate an unusual situation that occured at Gettysburg this past summer. We formed up with around 35 men. We did reform the company each time we did a formation. The 1st formation I was around the 30th man in line. For the next formation I was around the 20th man and hence the 15th on the 3rd formation. There were no real change of personnel for the formation, just the matter of how some guys were judging their heights. Jest of the tale is that it doesn't matter a whole lot where you are in the line as long as you are generally in line by height and the shorter man is in front.

The roles of the Corporals are of course different today but they still play the role of filling in for Sgts that are missing. One the the biggest problems is that we usually have too many NCO's. We are all aware of this.

Overall I think the 3rd is doing an excellent job and am impressed with their drill and manual of arms training.

Will

Apples and oranges.

What we have here is the ideal verses the reality. having been in the military its like this, in formation you are in the same place every day, and it stands to reason that it was the same back then, but the difference is, most of the time when we form into company we are either 1)drilling with just our own company ranging in number from 4 to 15
2) forming up with outher units at some event mixing up our units to accomadate the hight differences and every time it is done someone else shows up or someone drops out.

So it would be great to do it like they did but in most cases its not possible..I personaly would love to do it that way at all events once its formed the first time....I always look whos at my right and left front and /or back and try to get there every time but it seems others dont do that....
hardees or gilhams or caseys oh my!

Seamus

"it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifing......nothing"
MacBeth

PRIMA NOCTA

An Animated Illustration of Formation of the Company

I came across a website http://www.cwreenactors.com/~sykes/instruction/f_formingcompany.html
For the Sykes Regulars, 2nd & 4th U.S. Infantry. They have animated exactly the motions for forming the company to include the posting of all NCO's. Hope this takes some confusion out of things.

"Never Apologize, It's a sign of weakness"

Pvt. Steve Henry
Co. A, 3rd Maine Volunteer Infantry
"Bath City Greys"

illegitimi non carborundum Pvt. Steve Henry Co. A, 3rd Maine Volunteer Infantry "Bath City Greys"

Great diagram!

I liked that diagram - it would be useful to have diagrams for ALL the formation and marching orders -maybe someone could contact the fellow that runs that site! The written descriptions are cumbersome and can be confusing and ambiguous.

I see in that particular example the company is formed with the tallest on the left - when I have fallen in with the third Maine the tallest are on the right, as I recall. Also, note how the corporal just stays in position, and the rest of the unit forms the two ranks on him.

In general - I am baffled by most of the orders, and rely on my compadres to push me into the correct positions, the words in the orders themselves don't seem to make sense or have any intuitive connotation for me. (Even "Right Shoulder Shift" - it seems like I should be SHIFTING shoulders - but if I do that the gun ends up on the wrong right shoulder) Michael was kind enough to start explaining the "system" to me on the ride back from Nolands the other week - how the orders differ from the line or when given on the march; and are all designed to move the unit to a certain place or into a battle line. THEN I started to get a small glimmer of understanding - but still have a long way to go! Looking forward to it, too!

Ditto

Nice presentation, only slightly different that how we do it in the 29th. I added the site to my favorites as there are some articles/tips I want to check out later.

And another animation to consider

Check out this link from the 10th Penn. Reserve.
http://www.reznorstudios.com/CivilWarFolder/DrillCo1.htm

This animation does it differently. It shows a left face to form two colunms. Check it out.

They have a whole series of other drills at:
http://www.reznorstudios.com/CivilWarFolder/DrillCo2.htm
http://www.reznorstudios.com/CivilWarFolder/DrillCo3.htm
http://www.reznorstudios.com/CivilWarFolder/DrillCo4.htm

Not sure I agree with every command that the animations walk through but they are nice and clear. For those that have trouble visualizing some commands, these may help.

--
Michael Johnson

-- Michael Johnson

pretty good

Mike,
That was a somewhat enjoyable little session. Yet another way units form up. Turning left puts the men in the right height order but only if the 1st Cpl is the tallest man in the unit.

I think it is safe to say that once a company has been in the field any length of time they may learn where to fall in as if second natured. I have given this a considerable thought and with the information of the amount of drill they had done, most units probably skipped the step of forming company expect for dress parades. That's only if they had been falling in close to where they should be to begin with.

I found some errors in the cartoon but minor and arbitary.
"Counter march to rear" is a bit vague and confusing because they end up marching in front column to the left flank. It would have been better to of had the men front to show that they were indeed marching to the rear.

It is important to note what are actual battalion commands and what are not. When in Battalion the Captain actually will only give a tenth or less of actual orders to move.

I liked the Confederates sudden appearance. It kind of reminds me of South Park. I have a feeling this made be a borrowed clip art and that there is a Confederate version as well.

Will

Same response

Hi Will,

My response was pretty similar to yours. The turning to the left works well but only if the 1st Cpl is the second tallest man though. The counter march and something else jumped out at me but I'm blanking on it right now. All in all though the graphics are good. A new recruit looking to visualize what they should be doing and where they should be going could find them very useful. Maybe Tom will show up soon and give us the perspective of a new recruit.

I have been meaning to dig into the books and look at a large number of photos of companys and battalions in line. My idea is that if the idea that after a time each man just knew where they should be then there might be a few problems with heigth in the photos. I don't think it will be conclusive.

It's a long shot but I wonder if after a time mess mates would stay in their cells of four even if newer recruits heigth would, by the book, normally require an adjustment. Anyway, it's an effort to find support in picturs for your theory.

A winter project hopefully. Perhaps if I can find enough evidence to make it worth further discussion then I will prepare a few examples for a Kitchen Conference.

--
Michael Johnson

-- Michael Johnson

I noticed

There were a few things that required double checking. I noticed that the skirmisher squads had more autonomy than what we are use to but whereas the 3rd Maine does more of this type of drill, maybe not. I think and hope the site is work in progress.

We could debate drill forever and a day and never quite agree on everything. I know that when many regiments were formed of militia units, seldom did the units all use the same manual. Gilham's for example was more for flintlocks as was Upton's, while other units were using Hardee's and Casey's. Our Battalion has basically given some leeway on their use as long as we get into the same formations as a Battalion. Manual of arms are uniformed for Battalion inspection and dress parade.

One of the more hot topics has been positioning of the arms while fixed with bayonets. The Salem Light Infantry has everyone in the position of charge bayonet at the command charge bayonet. Most units has the rear rank at either port arms or right shoulder shift.

The confusion has been when in the ranks at open order, everyone should go to charge bayonet and then they forget when they are in closed ranks to go to port or RSS. If you are not extensively drill with this as the Salem Light Infantry is, you are going to begin to see a rise in injuries. While we may debate the academics of the position, it is ultimately up to the commanding officer on the positionings.

That was my bit of rambling for the week!lol

Will

That's right Darlin'

All you need do is look lovely and I'll be sure that corset is laced!

Major Eric R. Reeder
CSO, 1st Division ANV, Staff
Liberty Hill Signals

2nd Lt Eric R. Reeder United States Army Corps of Topographic Engineers "Hawks and Eagles fly like Doves"

Animations are very helpful...

Maybe Tom will show up soon and give us the perspective of a new recruit.

I thought they were great - I am going to have to stare at them and memorize them, though.

What is the command where we do a right face, but end up in 2 columns, rather than 4 (just turning to the right, rather than "twos up"). "By 2 files, right face"?

In two ranks

"In two ranks, Right (or Left) Face."

You will also hear...

"Without Doubling, Right (or Left) Face."

The command can also be given...

"March by the Right (or Left) Flank, March!"

And could be executed without doubling as well.

--
Michael Johnson

-- Michael Johnson

great discussions

Back to the original thread, I would agree with Will and Mike that once companies/regiments became seasoned, they would likely form up in the quickest, most direct method possible...straight into two ranks. In camp/garrison, remember that each company would form on its street prior to marching out to the color line to join the rest of the regiment. It would be highly unlikely that they would go through a lot of extra steps and movements restricted in area as they were. Personally, I don't like the idea of having the men count off twice, and then having to reposition some of the corporals. We see this in action often, as when we work with students at educational outreach, we do form them in one rank first, have them count off, and then double them into two ranks..kind of like it might have been with a green infantry company/regiment. After experience comes along, however, as it is with most of our units, the need to go through these extra steps is not often necessary.

Cooper's 1836

I was recently reading Coopers manual for U.S. Troops. In this book it specifically goes into how to "form" company into two ranks. This tends to follow theory I had that the understanding how to do this became so universal that it was largely neglected as important by the time of the Civil War.

The difference was that instead of forming the company on the right, it was formed on the left. Now for those who know the manuver, know that generally forming to right we are facing to the rear and need to "about face". We modified this a little by not turning to rear during the formation and just fronting.

Here is the difference in 1836 with Cooper. By forming the compnay on the left, the men were already facing to the front. "In two ranks, form company, Company left face. March" (This formation is also in mentioned Hardee's) When the command "March is given" the pvt at the head of the column turns right and steps up and the man behind simple steps up and turns right. (In reverse order of how we normally do it.)

The men are once again in alignment by shortest to tallest with the taller man in the rear rank. There is a Pitfall to this however. That is, if you have an odd number of men, you would be stuck with one man in a file by himself next to the 1st Sgt. This simply muddles up the formation when you "count off".

My final analysis is that the troops were indeed formed by this method but perhap discretionary to the commander to form on the left or the right. Our Battalion tends to forms on the right, but just to freak them out maybe we'll form on the left at the next event. (But only if we have the even numbers!:)

Will